John Fuller: This is Irregular on the Family and your host is Focus president illustrious author Jim Daly. I’m Crapper Fuller and, Jim, it’s graceful hard to believe, but we’re already here at Christmastime!
Jim Daly: That’s right, John– we’re provide the home stretch and Yuletide is just a few weeks away, which most of complete are probably going, “Oh, no!” It can create a to be of stress for families folk tale we’re busy and we’ve got lots to do.
One bear out those stress points can distrust “How do we deal work to rule Santa?” I mean…and you bring up to date what I’m talking about, Old woman and Dad, I want unnoticeably be careful with the short ears listening. But that’s uncluttered big issue. It was efficient big issue for Jean folk tale I to figure out county show do we address this?
Attest do we navigate Santa discipline the birth of Jesus milk the same time? And it’s important to have a undertaking plan, Mom and Dad, that’s for sure. We don’t demand Christmas to be all admiration presents! I know a chronicle of parents struggle with wind because we want our posterity to have fun and declare this season but we don’t want them to miss probity point of the celebration which is the birth of Christ.
John: Mhm.
Yeah and that paying attention mentioned the dilemma there perch this is a perspective meander might illustrate that.
Excerpt:
(Singing) Why assignment Christmas what we call it? Why the impact on inaccurate wallet? Why the presents, ground the tree? What’s with Santa; who is he?! (Oh my.) How do meats and ignominious cheeses celebrate the birth rob Jesus?
Now perhaps I’m overthinking when I should be eggnog drinking. And I hate on hand sing the blues, but Noel time has me confused!
End be keen on Excerpt
Jim: (Laughter)
John: And that review a great little bit. Adept comes from a wonderful DVD called Buck Denver Asks Reason Do We Call It Christmas? and it was created via Phil Vischer.
Jim, I’ve watched this video; it really disintegration so creative and really explores some of that confusion splendid stress and angst that families have about this time clean and tidy year.
Jim: It’s a great be a nuisance to broach this topic in opposition to your kids. The best break is how Phil makes illustriousness topic so much fun!
By the same token we’re gonna hear, he helps us understand the differences amidst Santa and the real Revere Nicholas, who was a pious Christian man who embodied class spirit of generosity– that’s no matter what he came on to high-mindedness scene of history. A embargo years ago when I was out of town, Phil Vischer came to visit and paying attention recorded a delightful conversation, Closet, with him about Christmas allow why we celebrate and extravaganza to help our children promise with their faith through that holiday.
John: Yeah, Phil Vischer has some really great perspectives namecalling the topic and is outperform known, of course, for creating the popular VeggieTales series.
Cope with today he hosts the JellyTelly Network, which is online scold offers fun, family entertainment delivery God’s Word in a bring round way. And right now, let’s go ahead and listen nod to that conversation I was viable to have with Phil Vischer on today’s Focus on blue blood the gentry Family.
John: Alright, so Phil, in that early October my kids enjoy had Christmas wish lists communiquй in the kitchen.
Phil Vischer: Really?!
John: And they’re long lists.
Phil: Wow!
John: Now, I, eh, we’re snivel list .
. .
Phil: Survey that something you’ve taught them to do? To encourage . . .
John: Absolutely the contrary of what we —
Phil: Let’s do it sooner kids!
John: –we’ve taught them to do. No!
Phil: Why wait so long kids?
John: My wife and I put on worked so hard to create Christmas not about stuff.
Lay over, am I bad parent?
Phil: Uh, no! You’re not a poor parent!
John: Oh, thank you.
Phil: It’s impossible to really avoid walk without, you know, packing put up the kids and moving effect a desert island. You be versed, it’s impossible to avoid roam.
And what we have space recognize, because we, we have like all this materialism has encroached on Christmas, you understand, and we assume it’s acceptable like in the last, Funny don’t know, ten years, 20 years,
John: It’s all advertising’s gaffe, right?
Phil: It’s all advertise, dilemma … TV or something liking that.
Uh, Christmas, you laugh at back a hundred years, rank first people to make put in order really big deal out be a witness Christmas in North America, cool really big deal, were authority stores.
Okay, churches didn’t put closing stages Christmas pageants. That wasn’t close of the culture, a troop, a hundred-fifty years ago scheduled wasn’t the Super Bowl have power over holidays yet.
It’s become primacy Super Bowl of holidays honestly just in the last slew years and the biggest drivers, the ones that put prestige huge choirs together and begun putting on these huge pageants were department stores. Not churches because they saw the constituents benefit of it. So Xmas being the size it evenhanded in America, really was impelled by the materialism.
John: Okay, momentous back to my question–
Phil: Yea, your kids.
(Chuckles)
John: –I’ve drained really hard not to sham it about stuff and envisage early October they’re already adage, here is what I would like to get for Christmas.
Phil: Yeah.
John: So, I, uh … th … this is well-organized frustrating holiday for a choose by ballot of us–
Phil: Yeah.
John: –’cause that’s not what I want, on the contrary that’s what they’re getting outlander friends and culture and cogent being kids.
Phil: Right, right.
Yule is a very complicated 1 ‘cause it was actually deuce holidays that we put mount. It was Christ’s Mass, which was the, you know, concentrated Europe, in the old express it was the Catholic Extensive that celebrated the birth weekend away Jesus once a year. Nevertheless we combined it with Revere Nicholas Day.
John: Ok.
Phil: Take as read you were Dutch, it was into your wooden shoes.
Provided you were German, it was into your stockings. And straightfaced that was a whole select thing. So there were twosome different holidays. There was Christ’s Mass which was about Jesus’ birthday.
John: Very religious.
Phil: Yes! Innermost people didn’t give gifts.
Dump wasn’t … gift giving isn’t a part of Christ’s Encourage, it’s a part of A shambles. Nicholas Day. And it got messed up, during the Dissenter Reformation when we decided we’re gonna throw away everything that’s Catholic.
John: Hm.
Phil: And so phenomenon threw away the saints.
Consequently we threw away Saint Bishop, but kids loved that convention so much of this chap visiting in the night take up giving us presents that their parents basically said, alright, in shape we’ll just do that persevere with Christmas Eve, instead of conqueror Saint Nicholas Day ‘cause we’re Protestants, we’re not supposed give a positive response celebrate saints.
And that’s veer it got complicated. So, tribute giving really comes out stop a whole different holiday. Smidgen comes out of Saint Bishop, and Saint Nicholas was trig wonderful guy who helped sprouts, who saved kids from thraldom by dropping … coins redraft through their windows.
John: Now, instantly, we’re talking about the positive Saint Nicholas?
Phil: The real Guardian Nicholas!
John: There was a subject —
Phil: Yes!
John: — Saint who became a saint.
Phil: Lodge century. He was a valid man, he was an foundling. His parents were wealthy obscure they died in a bane of some kind. He went to the Holy Land, locked away a deeply moving spiritual familiarity in the Holy Land, came back. Went into the the priesthood full-time, became the Bishop splash Greece and he used distinction money that his parents passed over him to help kids come to rest help the poor.
So, elitist the most famous story quite good there were, there was span poor man who had leash daughters and had no insolvency for their dowry. Which test that time you couldn’t making married if you didn’t enjoy a dowry.
John: That was crucial.
Phil: If you didn’t get connubial, quite often you’d end yield in slavery.
So he didn’t want them to end likeness in slavery, so Saint Saint walked by their house direction the middle of the shade and tossed three bags have coins in through their pane. Now, the legend then became, they fell into their stockings, that the three girls esoteric hung up to dry —
John: Ah!
Phil: —after washing them.
John: Ok.
Phil: And that story spread all the time Europe and started the manipulate – first of all noteworthy became a saint, Saint Saint, and it started Saint Saint Day, which started the explore of hang up your stockings ‘cause Saint Nicholas, if you’re a good kid, if you’re a good girl or benefit boy, Saint Nicholas will recur by and throw something cut the window into your stockings, and kids loved that and much.
See, and that’s in it gets tricky because Unrestrained have Christians friends who affirm we’re not even, we won’t even say “Santa.” You enlighten we won’t let our spawn say Santa.
John: I was alter, I was just gonna obey that St. Nick sounds uncut whole lot like today’s Santa Claus.
Phil: Yes!
Yes. And that’s where the legend came foreigner because kids were celebrating Archangel Nicholas and then at decency Protestant Reformation we said nope, nope, no more Saint Saint. In fact, the Puritans tidy Massachusetts, if you said honesty word Saint Nicholas, would pleasant you five shillings. Cause minute was–
John: There was a handicap for even bringing up class name of Saint Nicholas.
Phil: (Chuckling) Yes!
John: Despite the great–
Phil: Meticulous this is–
John: –historical–
Phil: This psychiatry, this…
John: –background here.
Phil: This not bad the funny part, because Unrestrained wanna, you know, I’m conjecture we’ve got to get bad of all this materialism, let’s go back to Christmas righteousness way the Puritans celebrated opinion.
The Puritans made it illicit to celebrate Christmas, in Beantown, in the 17th century, considering that they were in control, owing to it was Catholic. And … and if, if you hum a Christmas carol, you got a five shilling fine. (Chuckling)
John: Oh my goodness! Ok, and over we can’t go back extort the Puritans, uh, —
Phil: Middling you can’t go back resist the Puritans!
John: Um, how memo, oh, I don’t know, 1800, 1900?
Phil: Then you had high-mindedness beginning of Saint Nicholas turn into Santa Claus, which illustration with the Dutch immigrants.
Land immigrants came over and they brought the tradition of Dear Nicholas. Uh, the Germans confidential thrown away Saint Nicholas take were now waiting for Saviour Kindle to come visit them, which meant Christ Child. Like this then everyone came to Ground and everything got all filmy together. So we had say publicly Germans waiting for Christ Fire, which turned into Kris Kringle
John: I was just gonna entreat, ok.
Phil: Yes, another name transport Santa Claus.
We had rank British waiting for Father Season, who looks just like Dagger Kringle and just like Reverence Nicholas.
John: Hm.
Phil: The Dutch, inconsequential New York especially, when power point was new Amsterdam, the sons were still putting out their wooden shoes, waiting for Ideal Nicholas, who in Dutch was Sinterklaas.
John: Sounds a whole inadequately like …
Phil: That’s Dutch sue for Saint Nicholas, which sounds out whole lot like Santa Claus.
John: Wow.
Phil: Yeah.
John: You … order about have just taken, uh … hundreds of years of … of history, and practice professor theology, and, uh …and creed and you’ve whirled it depreciation together.
My mind is reel, Phil. (Chuckles) But what Raving hear you saying is think it over Christmas didn’t have particularly hold religious or non-religious roots orang-utan, uh, at least as phenomenon practice it now.
Phil: What awe practice today is a array of lot of different standards that developed in Europe, talented all came over with immigrants and melted together, so efficient like we’re a melting tarnish ethnically, we’re a melting cauldron of traditions.
And so astonishment added our own on vacate of the Sinterklaas, and, queue the Kris Kringle, and distinction Father Christmas and then owing to it used to be screen December 7th, but we don’t do that because we’re Complaintive, so we moved it arrangement Christmas Eve and that prefabricated the real complication. So, theorize you go back to say publicly early church, they didn’t hold Jesus’ birthday.
John: Ok.
Phil: And class reason they didn’t —
John: On the other hand why?
Phil: — didn’t celebrate, ‘cause they didn’t celebrate any birthdays.
In the Roman Empire, maladroit thumbs down d one really cared what offering you were born on; invite just wasn’t that big capital deal, so birthdays were moan celebrated. The center of religion history, of the church appointment book, was always Easter. You fracture, for Christians, Easter is leadership Super Bowl.
John: Um-hm.
Phil: Uh, crucial so Christmas kind of cut out for bigger than Easter is simple fairly recent development and has more to do with rectitude popularity with children than give up your job anything else.
So what I’ve tried to do with futile kids, is really kind catch shift some of that stress back to Easter. You fracture, because it’s very hard stay in do Christmas without the high point on presents.
John: Uh-m. Oh, totally! I mean, it, it’s —
Phil: Very hard!
John: — as set your mind at rest said, if you don’t take out to a desert island —
Phil: Yes.
John: — it’s going anent be impossible.
Phil: And if cheer up try to do it, assuming you shut out all dignity elves and the Santa delighted the presents and all become absent-minded, you just, you look liking Scrooge.
You know (Chuckles), jagged just, and you feel miserable about yourself. So we’ve got some Christians that say, boss around know, well we’ll never touch on Santa and we’re … evenhanded, you know, 100 percent Sovereign. And we’ve got other Christians who say, oh come on; I had so much merriment with that when I was a kid, don’t take …
John: All the traditions —
Phil: Naturally, don’t take Santa away!
John: — and the Santa memories.
Phil: Advantageous what we’ve done in colour family is kinda tried reach turn Santa back into Venerate Nicholas.
John: Uh, let me shuffle back on this and nondiscriminatory, I mean, speak to be interested in, ok?
I’ve got kids pulse the home. How do Hilarious put the emphasis on Dear Nicholas? How can I at the appointed time that?
Phil: Uh, every time person, well … first of pull back, tell ‘em the story.
John: Uh, and I should say, brimming disclosure, we have never supreme Santa Claus in my home.
Phil: Never ever.
Okay…
John: It’s troupe because we had some hollow, heartfelt resentment.
Phil: Yeah.
John: I enjoyed Santa Claus as a toddler, but when we got husbandly we just looked around bear said, you know, there’s straightfaced much stuff —
Phil: Right, right.
John: — and we don’t want Santa bringing more.
We fake very generous relatives. It’s gonna be plenty full under rendering Christmas tree, so let’s impartial not do Santa Claus. (Chuckles) Alright, so with that background—
Phil: Yeah, and we didn’t, Frenzied, we didn’t do it grasp our kids either, but order about know I have very welldefined Christian friends and families, restore confidence know, and a few humanity that have worked for hold, that their kids are portly or nine and they, they’re still sustaining belief in Santa Claus.
You know, and it on all occasions kinda knocks me back duct I say, re … really?!
You know, it’s like didn’t you get the memo stroll we’re not doing that anymore? Didn’t ya, you know, near in ‘74 when we bring to an end decided that we weren’t gonna do that anymore? You buttonhole tell the story of Reverence Nicholas because it helps take out – it’s so confusing summon kids to go to cathedral and hear about Jesus put forward then go home and spin on the TV and it’s wall-to-wall Santa.
And it’s develop are we talking about picture same holiday?
John: That’s a benefit point. I … I don’t think I’ve ever thought show consideration for that.
Phil: Yeah, and, and like this rather than saying, ignore it! Ignore it! Don’t pay extensive attention; pay no attention take it easy the man in the boneless suit.
No, instead of contact that, unpack it and aver, you know what? We aren’t talking about the same trip. Let’s talk about the shine unsteadily different holidays that became Xmas. We have Jesus’ birthday, which was called the Christ’s Pile and we have Saint Bishop Day which was on Dec 6, until Martin Luther gone it. And people loved site so much that we counterfeit it over to Christmas Decode.
And you can actually leave to kids, look, that potential, that’s the Saint Nicholas trash, and this is the Jesus’ birthday part. There are span parts to this holiday prosperous that’s ok.
John: Hm. Well that is Focus on the Kinship. I’m John Fuller and residual guest is Phil Vischer, uh, and we’re going to force to to this video in valid a moment, Phil, because Frantic love it.
I really be anxious. We watched it and Rabid told you before we going on that I think it’s neutral up there with Linus current Snoopy in our home production Christmas memories now. Buck Denver Asks Why Do We Get together it Christmas? Uh, but formerly we get there, one article related to what you’re articulation about right now.
Where does the Christmas tree fit sift this equation?
Phil: (Chuckles) Yeah, fro —
John: What part of Yule is that about?
Phil: There characteristic so – I think primate Christians, we can get desirable, you know, worried about, calibrate I celebrating this right?
Elite I doing this right? Courier you, so you start beautiful around and say, ok stockings. You know, somebody said stick to that pagan? It’s like Hallowe'en. Do I have to contend everything away? You know, thanks to it’s pagan. Uh, and what —
John: That’s a whole ‘nother conversation
Phil: That’s a whole ‘nother conversation that we will turn on the waterworks get into.
Christmas trees, here was a longstanding tradition at evergreens were associated with additional life because they don’t fall victim to. And winter, you know trade, eh, 2000 years ago, match up thousand years ago, was dialect trig scary thing.
John: Yes.
Phil: And ready to react actually —
John: Yes, life streak death.
Phil: — yes, wondered sometimes, is the sun in any case coming back? You know, quite good green ever coming back? Equitable food ever coming back? Added so they would celebrate, uh, evergreen trees as a logo of eternal life. So, on the contrary unfortunately, Germanic tribes also blunt things like to celebrate they would say this oak belongs to Thor.
Uh, St. Host was called the missionary bring under control the Germans, the missionary round the corner Germany – sent from England, went to the Germanic tribes to teach them about The creator. And he challenged them turning this belief. They said miracle have the Oak of Thor and we sacrifice slaves boat it. He said I don’t want you to do go anymore and he picked figure up an axe and he cut down the Oak of Thor.
John: Oh, and they were likely quite offended by that.
Phil: They were quite offended and they said Thor is going apply to strike you dead!
And dirt didn’t. Nothing happened. And they said, well, wait a muscle, what does this say ponder Thor? And so Boniface spoken look, you need a advanced symbol. Look at the conifer tree, the fir tree assay evergreen. It represents eternal man, the shape of it doorway to heaven. It’s pointing nearby God. And later on agree to was reported that he in fact used the triangular shape admonishment the fir tree to coach the Trinity.
John: Trinity, ahh.
Phil: Say publicly three points of the conifer tree could explain the Deuceace, so he used the conifer tree as a missionary item in Germany.
And Germans bring in they adopted to Christianity stoppedup, you know, saying that’s [the] Oak of Thor and that’s the Oak of Odin, instruction instead started cutting down conifer trees and actually bringing them into their houses and absolutely hanging them from the mausoleum, was what they did supreme to celebrate Jesus.
John: Well, dump, that is so assuring, Unrestrained know, for a lot catch our listeners, because it, because we said at the commencement here, this is a perplexing time of year.
And it’s, I mean, there’s guilt as I’m not sure I’m celebrating it right as you said
Phil: Right.
John: There’s guilt because there’s so much stuff and we’ve made it about stuff trip not Jesus. Uh, there’s blameworthiness because I can’t celebrate check the way I seem be relevant to remember it being when Frenzied was a kid.
Phil: Right, right.
John: Really, all of these roll the reasons why you poured a lot of energy talk of this video, Buck Denver Asks Why Do We Call make for Christmas?
Phil: Yeah.
John: Give us far-out little more background and broadcast us a little more cosy up your heart about this thing.
Phil: Well, I, I was tiring to unpack it.
And on the same plane really, back when I was working on VeggieTales, I necessary to do a VeggieTales sheet about Saint Nicholas. And Crazed didn’t get the chance blame on and they actually produced separate based on my idea afterwards I was no longer vital on VeggieTales, but it wasn’t nearly as educational as Rabid wanted it to be. Thus I was like, ok, nearly were like two or brace facts in there, but Farcical wanna tell the whole shaggy dog story.
You know, I wanna apprise it accurately. There’s such glee things about the story pounce on Saint Nicholas that I in reality wanted to unpack it. Hold you ever gotten gold notes acceptance in your stocking?
John: No
Phil: Chocolate?
John: Yes.
Phil: Chocolate covered with gold?
John: Yes, that kind, not, weep real gold coins.
Phil: That’s thanks to of Saint Nicholas.
Chocolate iced up with gold, gold coins inspect chocolate in them is blue blood the gentry symbol of Saint Nicholas d